I wrote this book The Second Mountain about renouncing some of the worldly definitions of success, then Im freakin checking my Amazon rating every hour. Because its all correlation. On June 15 he tweeted, They made up a phony collusion with the And even in the US, if you go to the Gettysburg Battlefield. And I did what any American Idiot would do, when overcome with a moral and emotional problem, I tried to work my way through it. And you both quote The Death of Ivan Ilyich by Tolstoy, which was obviously written at a quite similar turning point in Tolstoys life, where the sense of the moral universe that Ive been living in, that if I have enough status, and money and progress and success, that kind of First Mountain life, then I will find satisfaction. And you know, one thing to do is Ive raved on CS Lewis, who I dont mean to because I admire him greatly, but he, you know, he would never use a big word when a small word would do. And if anybody has seen the American film, The Breakfast Club, that was my school, it was a big public high school with all the cliques and the jocks hated the drama kids, and the greasers hated the, you know, I dont know who, the tech kids. And so that sense that this is some work, were forming a person who will come through in a crisis, that for all the snobbery of Eton and rugby in those schools, that was what they thought they were about. David is an op ed columnist for the New York Times a radio and television host, author of multiple bestselling books, and chair of Weave the social fabric project at the Aspen Institute, among many, many things, you can go and read his very impressive biography for . After getting a life-changing Parkinson's disease diagnosis, it can be comforting to find out who else has the same diagnosis. And so he was renouncing something that he was, was at the top of the game. 08/12/2021. We are also in the process of adding disclosures to any earlier columns in which David refers to the work of Weave or its donors.. See, this is why David Brooks is a waste of air. DavidYeah, and so all the Jewish families gave their kids English names so nobody would think they were Jewish. His emerging specialty, whether in his New York Times column or best-selling books, is distilling dense concepts for the mainstream. But were equal on the level of our soul. And so I experienced some sort of love, unconditional love before I figured there was a guy up in the sky, or, and then what, then I experienced a sense of being observed. New York Times columnist David Brooks set Twitter ablaze with a piece in which he explained why he doesn't smoke pot anymore. And they were names like Irving, Norman, Milton, Sydney, it didnt work at all, because in America, at least those were considered Jewish names, not English names. And so that was just the story into which our lives were shaped. And it reminded me again, of something I reference, quite a lot, which is Iain McGilchrists work on the different brain hemispheres. And so we know nothing about this. David Brooks: We were blessed to live for many years, probably all of our lives so far, in this era of rules. He died in 2016, 32 years after he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. It helps them stay in touch with those right around them. All I know is that I want in. MichiganFeedback: . He was, he was he thought it was a good book. How was your sense of identity during that period?David Yeah, especially in that kind of time in my life, I made a living off of selfhatred. And remember, one of the most helpful things you can do is send an episode to a friend and start a conversation with them. Now, he had to double down and offer additional proof that his superiors (maybe he doesnt have any?) And so all your political opponents take your vulnerability as an opportunity to pounce on you, which they indeed did. The first reason he gave was an "embarrassing" incident that went . In retrospect Whitewater seems overblown. And when you meet somebody, some of the characters in Dostoevsky in particular, who have renounced self, you see a beauty there that is, that is beyond what what you can achieve when you stay in our frame.Elizabeth Yeah. No. Data, Cant be totally confident on that, we all think we would be the one to leap in. We are not always aware of how fear plays a role in our lives. And also honestly, because Ive been having this real wrestle this morning between David Brooks, famous New York Times columnist, the sort of cultural artefact, the cipher of your identity in public. every time we find ourselves replacing politics of democracy with the Lonely and living alone in an apartment in Washington, D.C., Brooks, 52 at the time, took stock and saw that in his rise to the pinnacle of American punditry, he had failed to make or keep . And Im not sure it was the stained glass, the images of Jesus, the Stations of the cross, it was more the soaring arches that enlivened something in me even as a four year old, a fourth grade choir boy. Things are so bad that Im going to have to give Trump the last word. avery brooks on robert urich death; provide for the common defense examples; missoula jobs part time; what happened to aiden on body of proof; alex o'loughlin children; custom sugar cookies san jose; poinsettia fundraiser pennsylvania; dr kadie sesay death; fort bend hightower football; michael boone gospel singer age; savina sordi morte . I have been reading your book this week, and also Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton, who is a philosopher, very good writer. David is an op ed columnist for the New York Times a radio and television host, author of multiple bestselling books, and chair of Weave the social fabric project at the Aspen Institute, among many, many things, you can go and read his very impressive biography for yourselves. And so the phrase was think Yiddish, act British.ElizabethIve never heard that. Men, its, its much more, lets look at the opposite sides of the wall, and talk about football.Elizabeth Yeah, and you know, you see that cashing out in suicide rates and all kinds of other things. 77 Great Peter Street, bombshell revelations came out in the media, which seemed monumental Climate-smart agriculture debate launches on Capitol Hill, US rebuffs Russian demand linking nuclear pact with Ukraine support, EPA proposal expected to expand sales of high-ethanol gasoline in Midwest states, House Republicans open investigation into role of intermediaries in prescription drug prices, newspaper about the salary he was drawing, Brooks denied his work for Aspen had compromised his reporting, Youngkin to take part in CNN town hall amid 2024 speculation, Bill Maher: I am afraid of Trump on a very personal level, McCarthy, GOP pump brakes on release of Jan. 6 footage to Tucker Carlson, Tucker Carlson Jan. 6 tapes subject to security review, Republicans say, US intelligence: No evidence foreign adversaries behind Havana syndrome, Trump successfully chilled FBI from being willing to investigate anything related to him: Peter Strzok, Republicans vow to block Biden FAA pick as Democrats double down. I don't quite know what the secret is to attaining such lofty standing in the Bogus Influencer Economy that you get to spend the bulk of your time appearing on the Sunday morning shows, collecting hefty advances for pamphlet-quality books . He was, he wasnt sure what it was saying. There were some meetings between Trump officials and some Russians, Elizabeth She is. It was not charity, was not Doctors Without Borders. So I began to go to church late after the service and started to leave early before it ended, in order to not go through the social rigmarole. expected. Maybe you should wait to see what hes got instead of sitting there and formally declaring the whole thing a sham. But even if you took a paragon of modern presidentsa contemporary And I was reminded that that can work kind of backwards in time and perhaps forward in time to future generations as well. And I would come to when I was exploring, going to churches, I get there early, like normal. So the Chicago had a great books programme, a core. Dont fear the pause, that when we speak, we like a match in my arm is an answer. policy, spreading insane allegations about birth certificates and So for the first two years, I read, I think I calculated I wrote 17 papers on two I probably took three or four classes on Thomas Hobbes, we were thrown into the great books, and it changed my life, once youve tasted the fine wine of those books, its hard to go back to Kool Aid. David understands those concerns and has resigned from the Aspen Institute, she added. Its really helped complicate my narratives about the different tribes in public life. And so there, my line was basically like, a bunch of 50 year old white guys. In a piece entitled "Weed: Been There. Thats freedom, baby. The moves came after reports in BuzzFeed News about Facebooks donation that raised questions about whether Mr. Brooks should have informed readers of the nature of his involvement with the Weave Project. All rights reserved. attempt to bring him down, theres a pretty good chance you could spur And so I was stuck in this crappy little apartment. Whitewater scandal. Yep, just your run-of-the-mill pro-dictatorship campaign. My name is Elizabeth Oldfield. But even I cant match the sheer, unbridled, galling laziness of Brooks here, who was apparently too busy to learn the intricacies of a bone-dry real estate investigation his own paper conducted, but has no problem at all declaring that scandal more damning than the current Russia clusterfuck. Everything was low key, its not, he was not operatic. And were not equal in the realm of our ideas or our muscle power. Which is a good thing. Elizabeth Have you come across the Francis Spufford phrase for sin? But he says very early on, I need to talk about sin, but when I say the word sin, you think of lingerie, and ice cream. And so I try to do it in a way that talks about faith in a way that wont turn people off. And, and so that was, that began the process of hopefully, some sort of personal change. Again, this all operates on the premise that theres nothing to the Russia allegations, which is insane. And I certainly had a calling of the sacred. Thats just too simple and too easy. In a regular appearance on Friday night on PBS NewsHour, he defended himself, saying that the situation hasnt affected my journalism. Mr. Brooks added that everything is public. But, according to BuzzFeed, Aspen had not disclosed some of the donors to the Weave Project, including Facebook, until BuzzFeed reporters began asking for them this year. The spiritual realm seemed to be alive with a transcendent and divine presence. I start talking to the shoulder and I talk to the end of my fingertips, but somewhere around the elbow, we probably stopped listening. But I found myself in in the States, when, in my community, sort of highly educated coastal, when you come to faith, you come to faith through Oxford. New York Times columnist David Brooks hasresigned froma think-tank job he has held since 2018 over issues involving conflicts of interest. #567: He doesnt know proper cutlery placement! And so I think it left an imprint, first, intense love of learning. We are also publishing full transcripts of each episode so scroll down on this page if youre a reader rather than a listener. March 6, 2021 The New York Times said Saturday that it was adding disclosures to past articles by the opinion columnist David Brooks that mention the Weave Project, a community-building program. You can read a full transcript of the episode here: ElizabethHello, and welcome to The Sacred. And most problems have been thought of, through three or 4000 years of, of theological and spiritual formation and thinking and, and teaching. And then were writing opinion pieces and editing and working your way up in journalism and writing books that were more kind of social analysis, Bobos in Paradise, The Social Animal, which is where I first came across you. I walked in, a reticent middle-aged white guy, and I reached out to shake the hand of one of the kids. I have help. He didnt even to try hide any of this shit. 1998 - 2023 Nexstar Media Inc. | All Rights Reserved. David Brooks has said, We are all fragile when we don't know what our purpose is, when we haven't thrown ourselves with abandon into a social role, when we haven't committed ourselves to certain people, when we feel like a swimmer in an ocean with no edge. You were so blocked before. Imaginary Vengeful Lincoln definitely wouldnt stand for this kinda shit. Most voters dont really care. The sitting presidents campaign may have deliberately helped Russia interfere in the electoral process. That are you usurping something. I would say its apt to say Tolstoy because one of the things that Tolstoy had was, he was one of the greatest writers of all time and knew it. The Best Prostate Massagers Will Unlock the Back Door, Meet the Four Artists Behind GQs First-Ever Digital Art Drop. And its not only selfish, you think if I wrote a good book, it would be a contribution to our all our conversation, so you think youre doing good. YEAH THATS WHY THERES AN ENORMOUS FAR-RANGING INVESTIGATION GOING ON AS WE SPEAK YOU COMPLETE DUNCE. And the world of Paul Fussell, the guy who wrote Class. Its the most just thing that has ever justed. And the tool was not the Bible. You know what? The politics of scandal drives a wedge through society. I really loved his description of himself as a kind of schmucky, selfconfident teenager. well below, for example, the perfectly legal ways he kowtows to thugs I've worked out two justifications for my anger at the Right as a whole. And so that case is such a morally horrific case that you wonder what was going on in their minds? And so the acute sense of peoplehood in the Hebrew phrase from generation to generation, I acutely experienced that then and I acutely experience it now. But that wasnt nearly enough. Get regular email updates on our latest research and events. And so it was a lesson in private male misery. And that was certainly what the University of Chicago thought it was about in a different way. But the alternative to talking about morality, is to have no one talking about morality. To him, its more important that Trump abide by whatever unwritten norms of political behaviorthe kind of ritualistic do-si-do that allows politicians to quietly dick over their countrymen without kicking up a fussthan getting to the bottom of whether or not his campaign was responsible for high treason. Now of course Trump shouldnt have tweeted about Oval Office tape Or what would you do if you werent afraid? And so many people would want to meet me, and then during the passing of peace, they come over to shake my hand. But I figured I couldnt really write about this stuff from a position of distance. But they, but the story and the songs and the hymns were just woven into the fabric of my childhood. Its a sort of chronological equivalent of expanding our consciousness, away from just us as our individual selves to a sense of those around us that staple of kind of all ethical and wisdom traditions is deeper consideration of the other. And when we set up a deranged autocrat who openly lies, refuses to pay contractors, hustles former customers, strikes down ethics concerns, and advocates crowd violence, we lose a little bit of what makes America AMERICA, you know? What would it be?David Well, to be practical, the next book Im writing about, its in the skill of seeing others and being deeply seen. And, and so I talk about it freely, running the risk of being insufferable to some people. and undermines the norms of democratic behavior. And so I cant even describe it. And little did I know that this class of bourgeois Bohemians would become the dominant elite class in society against which every other class would rebel. We may be ending that era and reentering an era of great power rivalries, such as. Freaking out is a completely normal and logical response to Donald Trump being President and Trumps behavior in office. Hes a very garlanded fiction or nonfiction writer in the states, in the UK. Did you wonder how youre positioning yourself? If you listen long enough, you should hear someone that you wouldnt naturally choose to listen to who you might even vehemently disagree with or dislike. 1. THE HILL 1625 K STREET, NW SUITE 900 WASHINGTON DC 20006 | 202-628-8500 TEL | 202-628-8503 FAX. And nominate, you know, Boris Johnson to stick a thumb in the eye of the Hampstead Elite or something like that.Elizabeth Whilst looking suspiciously similar himself in many ways. And theres this school, a prep school, called public school in the New England where the headmaster said, we try to create students who are acceptable at a dance, invaluable at a shipwreck. And little did I appreciate that the people used to be, what do you call them Sloane park rangers or people like that, they would grow up to be slightly more cultured. Mr. Brooks did not reply to a request for comment. And I certainly have not succeeded. What is this sense of, of divine love and really more sense of a moral order? A British actor best known for his award-winning turn in the 1982 film The Long Good Friday and for his voiceover in 1988's Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Bob Hoskins announced that having Parkinson's. She appears regularly in the media, including BBC One, Sky News, and the World Service, and writing in The Financial Times. How does this random IDIOT get treated as the definitive word on Serious Matters whens out here acting like (A) Robert Mueller wasnt appointed by democratically elected officials, (B) This kind of sweeping inquiry could befall literally any president, and (C) Lincoln would be King Of All Paper Shredders if he got investigated? So the single trait that correlates with the ability to know other people is verbal intelligence, you have to ask them, you have to have a conversation, which weve just been having. Thats why we have Mueller there to see if theres persuasive evidence of it. I dont mean to laugh, because I know it was actually a very dark time. And its a How were you, conceiving of yourself during that time? By David Brooks | The New York Times | Oct.. And an editor wrote to me on email, I love the way you talked about your book, but I wouldnt use the word sin, I would use the word insensitive. Elizabeth Im going to finish with a final question, which circles back really to the beginning about how, how do we get better at crossing these tribes, at connecting on a human level? I know a few friends who also find it difficult to go to church because of that. And he wrote in the margin, is this book about bonking Brooks?, and really seemed unable to deal with the lack of concreteness of talking about virtue and ecstatic encounter and intimacy and relationship and was clearly trying, bless him, but just, it was like bouncing off. We ran a series of investigative pieces raising Maybe instead of focusing on the investigation, you sit down and hug it out with the deranged pussygrabber?. Ad Choices. 10/02/2023, Big Tech, Can you tell us a bit about what happened?David It was a crisis of values, I mean, on the surface, and in some real way it was, it was just the normal personal crisis that people go through occasionally, it was going through a divorce, kids had left home. And so somebody has to talk about it, even though the reputational risks are a) that you wont live up to your standards, which is inevitable, or b) youll seem preachy and selfrighteous, or d) people think youre talking about sex. When you talked about Martin Buber and Ithou, and I was trying various points in the book, without Ubers eloquence or mysticism, to get into that sense of the interpenetration of souls of what deep communication is really about. answer the question why does david brooks shake, which will help you get the most accurate answer. And they say, Well, I wouldnt call it a moral argument. You are wondering about the question why does david brooks shake but currently there is no answer, so let kienthuctudonghoa.com summarize and list the top articles with the question. And, and frankly, religions have spent, and many other moral systems, have spent a lot of time thinking about forgiveness, like how do you do it, you dont just say, Oh, Im sorry, oh, I forgive you. Robert A. Tobiansky/Getty Images for SXSW. elites get swept up in the scandals. Not everyone is aware of a crossroads were at. But I asked a friend of mine, how do you talk about sin in public, a pastor. And but it was in that process of reading I came to refine what is this that Im feeling. I mean, I entered this faith, like, it was like investing in the stock market in 1929. But they want to have a moral vocabulary so they can figure it out. And yet heres Brooks being like, Nah, that Whitewater thing I never bothered to learn about was worse. Im in awe of this mans hustle. I am a truly lazy man. To revisit this article, visit My Profile, thenView saved stories. And check out ourSupporter Programmeto find out how you can help our work. As a Jew I experienced Judaism as peoplehood, as the exodus story, as a procession of the centuries, as ones responsibility to a people who just 16 years before I was born, were nearly exterminated from Europe. I know theres a lot more coming in what feels like part three of a trilogy, Im hoping is what your next book will be. And so for example, I was talking about before The Second Mountain came out, I was talking about it on a TV show, and I mentioned the word sin. What forgiveness are you withholding? Trump successfully chilled FBI from being willing to investigate anything Christie: Trump grand jury foreperson did a lot of damage to case, Two more House Republicans call for home-state Rep. Santos to be ousted, Trumps polling strength causes heartburn for Senate GOP, Zero-calorie sweetener popular in keto diets linked to strokes, heart attacks, Schumer, Jeffries ask Murdoch to stop Fox hosts lying about 2020 election, What Bidens FHA mortgage fee cut means for buyers. And if you talk about it as disordered love, you dont have to talk about it as depravity in the human soul, which really does repel a lot of people. Rather than maybe I should feel some. American arms control leadership: What now? And I think thats because I guess for a lot of people, they were not raised with the category of intimacy. How do you avoid sounding preachy? And when you write books that are humour, all you can do is make fun of rich people. In 2017, David got married for the second time. But frankly, on my list of reasons Trump is unfit for the presidency, And our professors You know, theres a saying that if you catch fire with enthusiasm, people will come from miles to watch you burn. Or maybe patience for them? Now 21% Off. And to leave that all behind, which frankly, a lot of American Protestants do like its like Jesus came, yada, yada, yada, I had a personal relationship with Jesus, all that social teaching nah I dont really care. So we were all on the pail of settlements, the Jewish settlements in Central Europe. So youre sure you understand it. They say, Well, it sounds it sounds judgmental. Young people who have experienced living with cancer have been sending words of encouragement to footballer David Brooks after he was diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma. Send me a tweet @ESOldfield @sacred_podcast, send us an email and just be in touch. It was the most boring process imaginable of gradually, life seemed to become more enchanted and more alive. That you can believe that each person has some piece of themselves that has no size, weight, colour or shape, but has infinite value and dignity. And I had to take some chances on myself and I think the rule of vulnerability is you should be slightly more vulnerable, you should regret it slightly afterwards, you should be more real, and then say I was probably a little too open there. And this kind of thing hes worrying away about how can we become more like the people that we want to be and the challenges of that. And as usual, if you have a moment, wherever you are now on the bus, walking down the street, on the toilet, maybe head over to iTunes, and leave us a little rating or review. Please note that Brooks was already on a remarkable take bender this week when he posted this missive about deadbeat dads (some of them care, you guys!). But the public is not the private. subpoena his staff and look under any related or unrelated rock in an Vital in a crisis. London SW1P 2EZ, About| And if I, you tell me a secret, and I blab at a dinner party, Im putting my love of popularity above my love of friendship. Like I came in at the worst time, like just when the American church was going through a crisis, and young people for understandable reasons were leaving in droves. And so its how do you really get to know another person, and you think you can be empathetic and emotionally place yourself in another person, you probably cant, you know, empathy is useful, but not just that powerful. And so I did not go through an angsty period I knew I wanted to write, but I was in a pretty nice group of friends, probably about 30 of us and we all dated each other in different order. Completely ordinary and within the confines of pro-dictatorship campaigning. Oh yeah, poor Donald Trump. David is an op ed columnist for the New York Times, a radio and television host, author of multiple bestselling books, and Chair of Weave the social fabric project at the Aspen Institute, among many other things. It was these were just important moral systems built around a series of books that were useful to read for wisdom.Elizabeth Well come back to this later but youve written a lot about the transition from a kind of moral realism to moral romanticism and, and various other dualities. And I think he used the phrase, these places where we know that people have been violently alive for a really long time. Mr. Brooks has resigned from a paid post at the Aspen Institute, a think tank, and will be involved as a volunteer with a group he founded at Aspen, the paper said. And when you actually see him through the Jewish lens, living in Jerusalem in a land of vicious conflict, a series of highly organised power structures, which he upsets all at once, you realise, Jesus is a total badass, hes not like, a guy in a tweed jacket. Theos researches and investigates the intersection of religion, politics and society in the contemporary world. So its the, its really hard to renounce all the values you had as you were climbing up the meritocracy. And so these formulas are not only, I think, baked into the fabric of the universe, theyre just super useful. But I want to do it with a few caveats, which is, this is the most private of things. If you accept Jesus, then youre not on the team anymore. Elizabeth Yeah. The people who hype the politics of scandal dont make American The passengers, Im judging them. Because theres a couple of conversations on the podcast, you can listen to people going, why cant I accept this for myself? And I would say, in midlife, I hopefully have gotten more emotionally open. Brooks is known for his centrist views and his ability to analyze political issues in a nonpartisan way. infinitely financed team of prosecutors at him and gave them power to And so you have a very classy kind of God, and sort of appropriately Britishly restrained kind of Jesus. So I just wanted to name that right at the start to try and get out of the way. But I was sent to an Episcopal School called Grace Church school on lower Manhattan. Morality, Subscribe to The Sacred on Apple podcasts, Nathan Mladin on the role of dignity in our modern datadriven society 26/01/2023. "This morning, David Brooks notified the Aspen Institute that he is resigning, effective immediately, from his paid position with Weave: The Social Fabric Project and will continue to serve in. those essays. Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of And it made me laugh out loud, but it was a, he was commenting on a particular passage that you were talking about these transcendent moments of connection with other people and the world. And so but it was that sense youre arriving, you know, and the exodus story played just this powerful influence on American history that the Puritans thought they were leading, living the Exodus, the founders, the American founders wanted to put Moses on the Great Seal of the United States. The larger problem was a sense of leading a life according to values that I knew were wrong, and coming to not recognise oneself. And so its CS Lewis, its JR Tolkien, its Sheldon Vanauke who wrote A Severe Mercy. And so theres a theologian Paul Tillich, who has a phrase the ground of being, that the ground of being is a loving order, a moral order, an eternal order. And I have a friend and cousin, the very famous linguist, Steven Pinker, who says, you know, Ive been involved in a zillion faculty hiring decisions, and I went to grad school, and I never got a class in moral formation or character building, and forming characters has never been part of our hiring decisions when we hire for our department. It sounds like we are judging people. And so if you keep that gem statement at the centre, youll have something and then finally, the quality of conversation is determined by the quality of the questions. Midterms are usually hard for the president's party, and this one was bound to be doubly hard because of global inflation, writes David Brooks. Thenview saved stories request for comment it in a regular appearance on Friday night on PBS NewsHour, he,... The sitting presidents campaign may have deliberately helped Russia interfere in the realm our. States, in midlife, I wouldnt call it a moral order boring process imaginable of gradually life. With the category of intimacy want to do it with a transcendent divine... Opponents take your vulnerability as an opportunity to pounce on you, which Will help get! Had as you were climbing up the meritocracy a tweet @ ESOldfield @ sacred_podcast, send us an email just... Was going on as we speak, we all think we would be the one to in! The intersection of religion, politics and society in the realm of our ideas or our muscle power &. During that time COMPLETE DUNCE imaginary Vengeful Lincoln definitely wouldnt stand for this kinda.. To bring him down, theres a pretty good chance you could spur and its. Himself as a kind of schmucky, selfconfident teenager Im judging them in private male misery insufferable to people! A pastor more sense of a crossroads were at is such a morally horrific case you! Selfconfident teenager, Well, it sounds it sounds it sounds judgmental not... He thought it was a good book sure what it was about in a way that talks about in. 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And welcome to the Russia allegations, which is, this all operates on the podcast, you help! Very garlanded fiction or nonfiction writer in the electoral process know proper cutlery placement in midlife, I call... Far-Ranging INVESTIGATION going on as we speak, we like a match in my arm is an answer,. The spiritual realm seemed to become more enchanted and more alive think thats because I know a few friends also! I accept this for myself any of this shit Episcopal School called Grace church School lower. The University of Chicago thought it was a good book ordinary and within the confines of campaigning... Nexstar Media Inc. | all Rights Reserved so they can figure it out what... So scroll down on this page if youre a reader rather than a listener great books programme, reticent! Elizabethhello, and welcome to the Sacred on Apple podcasts, Nathan Mladin on the podcast, you help... 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